A viewer on Youtube ask this question
Is he really saying you should keep your body static like that while moving your arms and legs independently of it? That doesn’t seem to be in line with taiji principles, nor does it appear to be what is going on when he’s actually pushing someone
This is the video where the question is from, 1. The human body and machine. 2. Shoulder-torso separation. 3. Upper and lower body separation
How would you answer his comment?
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
Oh, I was there, actually. Yes, he is actually saying don’t move and then move your arms and legs independently – and it is exactly what is going on when he pushes someone. I’ve learned to trust my eyes less, and now understand more clearly that my eyes must be calibrated before I can begin to rely on them, and even when I rely on them I must cross-check them with video and other people and other senses (i.e. tactile).
Pushing with Chen ZhongHua is a clear demonstration of the TaiJi principle (TaiJi means “Great axis/pole” or “Extreme Polarities”) since my power is directed straight into the ground and I then spin off the rotational axis he creates and holds steady and which I cannot access.
I often remind myself to focus on the lesson and not put my hands too high (where I can’t see them) since I can only understand very little at the beginning. GM Hong suggested that we learn through physical understanding first, and experience intellectual understanding later.
Having said that I am going to go do some physical training (again). Slowly working on that Zhong Ding (central stability).
From Wuji comes Taiji. Taiji is yin-yang separation, meaning your Taiji movement must have two states. In this case, a part of your body in “don’t move” state while other parts of the body are allowed to move. You can clearly see Master Chen demonstrated it when he executed the correct circle. His quas do not move but they are not static (I admit this is difficult to see). Please note it takes effort for the part of the body to be in “don’t move” state.
In Taiji classic: (if you want to) advance the left (you also must) enter right, (if you want to) advance the right (you also must) enter left. You can clearly Master Chen demonstrated this in the video. When Master Chen’s arm goes forward, his back foot drive backward. In practical method we use the analogy of gears to explain this concept.
Please note the above also demonstrates no “double weight”. (All movements in the same direction is considered double weight).
When Master Chen pushes someone he always has one point or one part does not move. It is not always obvious to see.
I should point out that many Taiji classic translations are done by people who are not proficient in Taiji and/or Chinese/English language. Be skeptical if your understanding of Taiji is not verifiable. Also, Taiji classic describes the end result, it is not a method to learn Taiji.
About the end result and not the method to learn…. I think I agree. Its a missing piece others do not get with just looking at the end result.
I believe that there are actually two different cases.
The move Master Chen is showing in this video is for when the opponent is within reach. In this case, Master Chen’s priority is maintain his center; which is is back. His center will serve as a point of leverage where the push form his leg will create a pull in his his shoulder and back; leveraging the force of his hands coming out.
When pushing hands, the scenario becomes more dynamic. Distances change, and when out of reach, one must step in. However, when one step in, one must maintain neutrality on the point of contact with the opponent. By neutrality, i mean that the if the opponent felt the that he pushed 5lbs to you, he fells that 5lbs is being pushed back at him. If he tries to push you more, he feels a stronger reaction. It is like the opponent were to be pushing a dead object like a wall.
This feeling of pushing a dead object must be maintained while moving in or out. For most people, when moving in, one will intuitively add more pressure at the contact point. And when one moves out, one will most of the time intuitively remove the pressure at the contact point. Again, the objective is to maintain the pressure while moving. This is achieved by reversing the actions on this video. One will have not too move the top but it can adjust by folding or expanding so that the force on the opponent doesn’t change, while the bottom moves in or out order to calibrate the reach.
To put it together, during pushing hands, one will first need to calibrate one’s position and leverage one’s force to push someone out. Of course, it is not that simple. One must also learn how to keep one’s center while moving in or out; which is out of scope of this discussion. By maintaining one’s center while moving, one don’t easily get pushed out when you get a strong feedback while moving in our out. In addition, one won’t have to re-calibrate the center, in order to use it for leveraging force.
Human arm vs robot arm, robot arm move against static axis and static base so it is more powerful than human arm. Master Chen demonstrated the hand needs to stretch against static torso to get power, it is separation of shoulder. If the torso move together with the arm, it cannot produce power. Or else, we can keep the upper body static and stretch the rear leg will get indirect power from the leg to the arm. In the video, MC showed separation of hand and foot in opposite directions while keeping the back static to produce power. Taiji uses static power in dynamic movement. If one freezes a Taiji movement, the structure is static as the body joints are kept intact as there is no no slacks in movement. Taiji classic: 動靜之機，陰陽之母也。Dynamic and static power depends on each another to form the movement. It is the root of yin and yang. Gear box using dynamic gears with static axises to conduct power may explain it.
Hugo,
In reference to what you said about ‘TaiJi means “Great axis/pole” or “Extreme Polarities”’, I would hope to give you my 2 cents:
1. Taiji [太极] is not Yin Yang [阴阳]. Taiji is before Yin Yang. In scientific terms, it is equivalent to before the Big Bang, when the universe as we know it, was not born yet. Some people call this state ‘the primordial soup’. The manuscript says: [易有太极，是生两仪.], or ‘I (I as in I-Ching, not sure to translate this, I may say ‘universe’) has Taiji. Out of Taiji, Yin Yang is born’. So Yin Yang is born after Taiji. Taiji has no ‘poles’ or ‘polarities’.
2. So it is hardly correct to translate taiji into ‘poles’ or ‘extremes’. But there is another catch. There is another manuscript that says [易有大恒，是生两仪.] (For those who don’t read Chinese, notice that one says [太极], the other says [大恒], so it was possible that someone mis-read/copied the ancient Chinese characters when they made copies) and it means ‘I (universe) has big constant, out of it Yin Yang is born’. This is the version that fewer people know about, but its meaning is much clearer and I believe it is more correct and in-line with modern physics. (Well you don’t have to agree with me on this)
3. Regardless of all the above more academic discussions, I think we just have to be aware that the practice of Taiii Chuan movements is about continuously changing from no Yin/Yang to Yin Yang and back.
The practice of Taijiquan is to train yin-yang separation.
While I am at it, let me point out that wuji [無极] actually did not exist in the original manuscript. The concept was rumored to be created ~1000 years later by some Taoist monk. Some argue that this concept is redundant.
Wuji does not exist in the manuscript. This does not mean Wuji was not and cannot used to help explaining Taijiquan.
I only hear Master Chen use “not moving/don’t move”. He knows what “static” means and he doesn’t use the word.
In my classes, some students asked this question before. To beginners, my answer is yes. “Not moving” is the same as “Static”. In the early stage of study/training, there’s no need to tell the difference. I think the only way for a beginner to have one part of the body not moving is to keep that part static, if the concept of “static” helps him/her. Nothing wrong with that.
There’s one thing we need to be aware. People usually associate “static” with “rigid.” Of course we don’t need rigidity in our Tai Chi practice. With years of practice and further understanding the Practical Method, we will know “not moving” is not the same as “static.” Only through practice and when you reach to a certain level, you will come to the conclusion. Before that, let’s assume “not moving” is the same as “static.”
1 ‘Not moving’ is not the same as ‘static’ but this is really not what the viewer is asking.
2. What the viewer wants to know is if the movements as demonstrated are inline with Taiji principles? I would say ‘NO’. Depends on what the practitioner wants to train at that moment a form can be practiced accordingly and that means that the form doesn’t have to be inline with Taiji principles. In this case Master Chen asks the students to train in this way in order to concentrate training the positive and negative circles and for rooting (among other things). I would like to believe that he would be teaching coordinated movements of the whole body to more senior students and that would be inline with Taiji principles.
3. Application is different from training, so Master Chen moves differently when he applies his Taiji techniques that should be inline with Taiji principles. As a side note, ‘Don’t move’ the point of contact (but one can move everything else) when applying a technique.
I don’t proclaim that I understand Master Chen’s practical method, so the above are just my personal ideas.
“Not moving” alone is not practicing Taijiquain. We need to put this in perspective. When practicing Taijiquan, every move must have yin-yang separation. In PM this is demonstrated by having “non-moving” and moving within each movement. This is fully in compliance with Taiji principle.
“Not-moving” is not “static”. In a very simplistic view, “not moving” requires effort to stay in the xyz coordinates while other parts are moving relative to the xyz coordinates. Static, on the other hand, could be moved by other body part in space.
My understanding is static has no action, which is devoid of energy and power. Whereas, “not moving” is an action that requires energy to maintain it’s not moving position…and due to having that fixed position, a stretch can occur…static produces nothing, don’t move has the potential of producing peng energy…please correct me if that is inaccurate…
Image a suspension bridge without any load (cars, pedestrians, etc.), yet its cables are full of tensions (therefore energy and power). So is the bridge considered static? Or just ‘Not moving’? Same for a building.
Trying to discuss the two terms at semantic level is probably not too useful.
This is irrelevant. You description only have one state. It does not have yin-yang separation.
If anything, your description resemblances Wuji.
My understanding is that ‘not moving’ is not the same as ‘static’ . For a suspension bridge, its cables are full of tensions to keep it static. Static forces keeping the structure stable are balanced so that the bridge does not collapse. While there is a strong typhoon, the forces applied on the structure will not be balanced and there will be tossing or twisting of the bridge. To keep it is stable, we need to apply compression and stretching happen to keep the center stable. We need to use power to keep the center stable. In no moving, the structure is ‘dynamic’ while center is relatively static in the whole body framework. I find that different styles have different interpretation of taiji principles and so I will put them aside and work on something with practical results.
So you are saying that there can be a set of ‘Chen Style Practical Method’ principles and a set of ‘Chen Style Chen Village’ principles that can be different from the ‘Taiji Classic’ principles and that is OK? This troubles me as I think that there should only be ONE set of principles that is most correct.
I agree there is one set of principle. Example, there is one manuscript written by Chen Xin. However, I am willing to bet that everyone reads it will have his/her own interpretation in some part of the document, no matter how small or insignificance it is.
There is only one set of Chen Style Tai Chi principles. There are more than one way to train and carry out the moves based on the principles. The way we do in Chen Style Practical Method IS different from that of Chen Style Chen Village. “Don’t move” is one important aspect of the Practical Method. In order to understand it, you have to study the Practical Method.
It’s as if you are studying a foreign language, you need to put the word in each language, otherwise, you will be confused. For example, the kanji “娘” in Chinese means “mother”, in Japanese means “daughter”. Same word, different meaning in different languages.
In Tai Chi principles, we read quite differently from other people. For example, “后发致人“, the key word is “后”, other people read it as in time wise, followed behind. Opponent moves FIRST, THEN I follow. Makes no sense in Practical Method. We read it as in space wise. We use the power from “BEHIND/后” to control the opponent. Don’t ask how to use the power from behind. You need to study and train in Practical Method to understand the concept. “Don’t move” is a prerequisite in order to train the way we move.
Great discussions. Thanks.
Here is my comment. If Not Moving Is the same as Static, then we have successfully save a word. But the fact is we have not. Two different things. Two different concepts. Two different dimensions.
For me Not Moving is a strict word of practical method and we don t know what means until the application works.Even then because of many other relationships of the body parts this is a part of whole thing. We need to speak in practical method language, which is not the usual language although it seem the same.Everybody want to solve the problem with one understanding and one explanation.
Everybody looks for shortcuts. Perhaps we need to use 51% old ways and 49% shortcuts to solve the problem. Old ways means what the teacher said. Shortcuts means what the modern world provides.
In reference to what PingWei said on May 6th about [后发制人], I have to following comments:
[后发制人] is an idiom with a well established origin, which is
[荀况《荀子·议兵》：“后之发，先之至，此用兵之要术也。”].
It clearly refers to [time sequence] and not [space difference].
It is not advisable to take a well-established idiom and inject a new meaning to it.
It’s not a matter of “injecting new meaning” into the classic. Nor is it a matter of taking the the classic words at face value. What’s needed to understand the classic is training with someone who understands the process to unlock the real meaning of the classics. The superficial meaning is not the same as the high level result that the classics describe. There is an inextricable relationship between space, structure, and time. Space becomes increasingly important in manipulating structure, and structure in maniplulating time.
— ” …. so you need to go through several “breakthroughs”…. your body will need to go through different structural benefits [changes] ….. so you overcome structure and time ….. structure is time… ” — Chen Zhonghua form a lecture in Hong Kong in 2012
Forgot to translate [荀况《荀子·议兵》：“后之发，先之至，此用兵之要术也。”] for those who don’t know Chinese:
It is from a book “Talks about the Use of Military Force” by “荀子” : “Start later but arrive earlier is a key technique in the use of military force”.
In Practical Method, “后/behind” is space, not time. In other Tai Chi, they have been reading it as time. We are just talking different languages.
For people who want to learn the Practical Method, the first thing they need to do is to learn the new “language” we use in our system. “Don’t move” is one key terminology. If you doubt it or question it, it only leads to failure in the pursue of the Practical Method. (Of course, you have the choices of other Tai Chi whichever suits your logic.)
Just for a joke: if a Japanese tell the Chinese who uses “娘” as mother is wrong, and teach the Chinese that “娘” means daughter, what the Chinese would say? The Japanese is sincere. He IS absolutely right, because he speaks Japanese.
Guys had better be careful who they want to marry, especially if they send proposals by letter !